Where did they get the guns?
Where did they get the guns?
Where did they get the guns? Well, they got the Tec-9 from Manes, and they got the long guns at the Tanner gun show, according to the official version.
...maybe, ...or maybe not....
--Let's start with the Tec-9
BATF(8150)
According to Mark Manes, he purchased the Intratech-9, ser#D076305, at the Tanner gun show on 8-2-98. He had a credit card receipt for $491 from Eagle Enterprises for the Tec-9 purchase. Eagle Enterprises says absolutely not! Which raises the question of whether a false paper trail was laid down for this weapon. At any rate the purchase price seems high--the cop who inventoried the seized evidence only put the value of it at $100(see EP 3-42). But Manes was not charged with forgery, as far as I know.
Mark Manes(8237)
Admits buying Tech-9, ser#D076305, from unknown buyer at Tanner on 8-2-98. Says he handed it over to Klebold on 1-23-99.
Brian Distel(8182)
Witness to Manes-"Klebold" Tec-9 transaction. Said it happened around late February, 1999. Also witnessed Manes buy it at the Tanner gun show, in January of 1999.
Describes buyer of Tec-9 thusly:
w/m, 6'
long curly hair, shoulder length
wearing blackjack pizza shirt
acne on face
20 years old
Distel IDed this person out of a photo array. Tellingly, the IOs do not put a name to this ID.
Greg Macilliott(8185)
The second witness to this transaction. Says it happened sometime in March of '99.
Describes purchaser:
curly hair
big nose
wearing blackjack pizza shirt
Like Distel, he IDed this person out of a photo array; he remains unidentified.
Comment: The police failure to identify who the two witnesses saw is obviously good evidence it was not Klebold. When I read those admittedly sparse discriptions, I think of Perry.
--The Hi-Point
Mark Manes(8237)
He asked Harris about the Hi-Point at a target shooting session on 3-6-99. "Harris said he got it from his cousin."
Phil Duran(8235 and 8213)
Went to target practice with H&K, Manes, and Manes' girlfriend in mid-March, 1999. He was told the Hi-Point belonged to an uncle or cousin.
--Shotguns
Denver Rocky Mountain News, 12-12-99
"The two shotguns used did not have serial numbers because they were made before 1968."
Marcus Notte, FBI(8203)
Shotguns have serial numbers: Stevens double-barrel, ser#A077513 and Savage Springfield pump action, ser#A232432.(Is it possible that we are talking about 4 shotguns here--two with numbers and two without?)
Says $300 given to Duran for purchase of shotgun, not a Tec-9.
Pat McDuffee(10789)
Says Klebold bought a shotgun on his 18nth birthday, "either from a Walmart or a K-mart."
Jim Washington(8245) and Ron Hartman(8249)
The duo at the Tanner gun show who sold Robyn Anderson one of the long guns. Hartman, who did the actual transaction, says it was the Stevens double-barrel shotgun, ser#A077513, and the transaction took place on 11-22-98. He says he is 80% sure it was Dylan Klebold that was the "young man who accompanied her", though he describes him as being only 5'11". For what it's worth, both Washington and Hartman are long-time federal employees--Washington was a 'senior investigative and security specialist' with the 'Defense Security Service,' a federal agency that conducts criminal investigation for the U.S. Dept of Defense, and Hartman was a 20-year veteran of both the Navy and the Air Force.
Robyn Anderson(8216)
Says Klebold bought shotgun from one dealer and Harris bought the double-barrel shotgun from another dealer, when they all went to the Tanner gun show on 12-13-98.
(9959)
Robyn Anderson told Brittany Campbell she had bought guns.
Kellie Brown,TCMer(8211)
Robyn told her in the evening of 4-20 that H&K purchased two shotguns and a rifle at the Tanner gun show.
Nathan Dykeman(8198 and 10693))
Says Klebold told him he bought a pistol('uzi' type) and a shotgun from Phil Duran. (Officially, Duran was merely a go-between, collecting and delivering the second payment on the Tec-9 from Klebold.) The Tec-9 and double-barrel shotgun belonged to Klebold; the pump action belonged to Harris.
Chris Morris(9822)
Told FBI hostage negotiators at 2:50pm on 4-20 that 'the' shotgun belongs to Harris' or Klebold's parents.
(10841)
Says Klebold could have got shotguns from his father, "as he had a number of guns."
Wheeldon, Sheridan PD detective(10222)
The first police officer to enter the Harris house on 4-20(thanks, Jane). A shotgun and ammunition is found by him in Harris' bedroom. Not a sawed-off shotgun barrel, and not a BB-gun.
"An unknown guage shotgun with a sling was hanging in clear view on the side of a dresser table inside the bedroom."
--Was there a handgun?
USA Today Online, 4-28-99
"Investigators said a girlfriend of one of the gunmen bought a handgun and a rifle used in the crime-and then on Wedesday said she actually bought two shotguns and a rifle."
Zach Heckler, TCMer(10754)
He was told by Robyn on 4-21 that she purchased two shotguns and a semi-automatic handgun.
ACSO Nelson(8802)
Witnesses tell him one shooter is carrying a double-barrel shotgun, machine gun like a Tec-9 and either a .45 or 9mm handgun. Shooter #2 is carrying single-barrel shotgun and a Tec-9 type machine gun.
Chris Wisher, Washington Post, 4-21-99
"Chris Wisher, a sophomore, said the gunmen were armed with bombs, a shotgun, a handgun and a third weapon that he said was 'like an uzi'.
BATF(8135-8145)
For some reason, on these pages the 11k goes into a digression into discussion of another crime--a drive by on 4-18 not thought to be related to Columbine. Traces were initiated on two guns seized: an Intratec 9, ser#D052614, and a Glock Model 17 9mm, ser#BLM99505. Are the IOs trying to tell us something here? Why would they include all this information on a crime that was totally unrelated to the subject of the 11K? IF either of the two weapons were part of the attack on 4-20, then it raises the troubling thesis that weapons used in the killings came from a police evidence room. Remember that a few of the eyewitnesses initially thought that one of the suspects was a cop.
[Dave's guns is on page 8136, where it was in the chain of possession of a Glock17 used in a drive-by shooting on 4-18-99. [4-16-96 sale date(see8316)]
I have always wondered why these 10 pages were in the 11k; well here is a possible link. Both the pistol and another Tec-9 were listed as being recovered in Littleton on 4-18, no address given. The drive -by occured in the 2800 block of East Euclid Avenue in Arapahoe County; this doesn't correspond to the address of any known TCMer.]
(9881)
At Leawood Park, reference to a Glock Model 21 revolver, handed amongst JeffCo sheriff's officers.
Nathan Dykeman(8198 )
"Dykeman never saw any Glock firearm or heard any talk of any Glock firearms."(Comment: why ask about a Glock in the first place?)
--Talk of an AK-47
Sean Graves(8759)
The shorter shooter was using an AK-47, army edition semi-automatic.
Brian Distel(8238 )
Went to a target shoot where an AK-47 was present.
Chris Morris(10037)
Says in past two weeks(of 4-20) Klebold or Harris bought an AK-47 off one of his other workers there.
--Possible other sources for the guns used in the attack
Bijan Monte(1016)
Said the Boles family(as in Tad Boles, TCMer) had a lot of guns. At the time of Boles' interview in May of '99, Boles' father was incarcerated on a weapons violation(10657).
Andrea Cook(5188 )
Says a (redacted-probably Perry) helped get the guns, and that he got them from several female students.
Dan Fleener, teacher(5558 )
Says TCMer David Caravan, boasted of having guns at home.
David Caravan, TCMer(6218 )
He told IOs that he had access to firearms at his residence.
Pat McDuffee(10786)
McDuffee says Joe Stair had many different types of guns, including shotguns. Also says TCMers Charles Phillips and John Beachum may have had weapons.
Jennifer Harmon(8834)
"She had heard that one of their dads owned a gun shop."
(10137)
Robert Perry's dad is a gun collector and "has an arsenal."
Eric Ault(10646)
Says that Harris told him he had access to his parent's guns.
Matt Houck(6633)
Says that Brooks Brown told him that Harris had recently ordered guns(he had just turned 18 and the three-week waiting period was up on 4-20.
Cecilia Grossman(7493)
A resident in the area, Brooks run up to her and ask if he could use the phone. According to her, Brooks told her: "Brown's ex-friend just turned 18 years old and Brown thought that he was getting a gun for his birthday."(Oddly enough, Brooks showed up four days later to 'confirm' that he was talking about Harris.(Taylor, 7687))
Daily News, Los Angeles, 4-25-99
"The investigators also said Thursday that they believed at least some of the weapons used in Tuesday's attack might have been stolen..."
John Veigel(7326)
Purchased Hi-Point rifle in Jan, '99
Benjamin Robert Stevens(8179)
Arrested with a Hi-Point rifle, ser#A54177, in his possession on 5-7-99. He claims he purchased the weapon from a store on 4-19-99, and that he was friends with Klebold and is "still tight with associates of Harris and Klebold."
FBI report, pg83
"...the weapons came from a local militia in the area,....The reason it happened on 4-20 is because they got all the guns and ammo and explosive compounds for free to do it on that date."(unknown source)
On 12-20-99 the BATF sent a letter to JeffCo that the computer search of records in the case is still ongoing(8258 ).(???)
Comment: The case of where H&K got their weaponry is not as clear cut as the police would have us believe. In the case of the Hi-Point and the pump action shotgun there is no apparent visible effort by the IOs to track down who sold them the weapons. In none of the four weapons sales was any receipt or bill of sale issued, as far as I can tell. The police are basically telling us that we have to accept the word of Mark Manes and Robin Anderson, both of whom, it should be noted, may have had motive to go along with the police version of events.
---------------------------------
Notes
DRMN 3-22-00
Two other Tanner exhibitors, Larry Russell and Ray Spain, have been linked to the TEC-DC9 used in the Columbine High killings. Neither have been charged with any wrongdoing for the sale of the weapon, which changed hands many times before ending up with Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold.
Russell and Spain have been in business together since the early 1990s, running various gun and fireworks operations, according to state records.
But ATF records show that only one man at a time maintains a firearms license, with a slight overlap. Russell had a license from 1990 to August 1997. Then Spain had one from May 1997 to Sept. 10, 1998. And Russell got his current license Sept. 22, 1998.
This business arrangement allows the formerly licensed partner to dispose of inventory without background checks or paperwork, authorities said.
Originally, the TEC-DC9 was registered to Spain's gun business. He then transferred it to his private property. In late summer of 1998, just before Russell got his license for the second time, he sold the gun for Spain at a Tanner Gun Show, according to court records.
The purchaser was Mark Manes, who's now serving six years in prison for selling the TEC-DC9 to juveniles. But Russell told ATF agents he kept no records of the sale.
-----------------------
Getty images
See pg15 of 24
photo of 'Dave's Gunshop' though the sign on the door clearly reads "Dave's Guns and Police Supply." [1842 South Parker Rd, #15, Denver(?-address not on photo caption)]
caption reads:
"6/26/99 Dave's Gunshop near Littleton, where some of the guns used in the Columbine massacre have been traced to."
The only mention of Dave's guns is on page 8136, where it was in the chain of possession of a Glock17 used in a drive-by shooting on 4-18-99. [4-16-96 sale date(see8316)] I have always wondered why these 10 pages were in the 11k; well here is a possible link. Both the pistol and another Tec-9 were listed as being recovered in Littleton on 4-18, no address given. The drive -by occured in the 2800 block of East Euclid Avenue in Arapahoe County; this doesn't correspond to the address of any known TCMer.
westword
http://www.westword.com/2005-01-27/news/word-of-mouth/3
"....at the back of a Thornton strip mall. ...." is a "....gun shop that used to occupy the space between Don Ramon's and Shotz (that) was the shoddy, occasional business where Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold purchased some of the weapons they eventually used at Columbine. In the wake of that tragedy, reporters flooded the gun shop, demanding answers from the reticent owner."
...could be referring to this one:
[http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/shooting/0430guns1.shtml
Thornton firearms dealer Larry Russell sold the semiautomatic pistol used in the Columbine High School killings at the Tanner Gun Show.
But Russell said Thursday that he kept no record showing who bought the weapon.
The TEC-DC9 ended up in the hands of Eric Harris, one of the two Columbine killers.]
DAVE'S GUNS(?) 1-3-01
http://www.westword.com/issues/2001-03-01/news/feature2.html
After a few years, Anver applied for a federal license to deal firearms. At first he sold them out of his house and at gun shows. In 1992, business was so good that he opened his first store, on Parker Road. Three years after that(1995?), he moved a few miles up the road to his current location, where business has continued to boom. Last year, Dave's Guns was the busiest single federally licensed gun store in the state. The store sold about 8,500 handguns, rifles, shotguns and collectibles.
One reason for Anver's success is niche marketing. He has made a particular effort to court local law-enforcement officers looking to buy guns for their jobs. Today Dave's Guns sells more firearms to more cops than any other local shop.
-- on June 1 (2001), Dave's Guns is burglarized. In all, Anver discovered 38 guns gone.
http://autos.rockymountainnews.com/shooting/0412dave1.shtml
DRMN 4-12-2000
While hordes of gun lovers will angrily protest President Clinton's every move in Denver, Anver — who sells more guns than any other Colorado dealer — will be hanging out with the president.
Clinton is loathed by the gun crowd. His visit today to promote a ballot proposal to close Colorado's so-called gun show loophole has incited a fresh round of animosity.
But not from Anver.
"President Clinton disagreeing with me does not make him an evil person," says the 39-year-old owner of Dave's Guns, a shop in a South Parker Road strip mall.
Today, Anver will pack up an assortment of weapons and head off to MSNBC's gun control town hall as an invited guest, the gun world's unlikely goodwill ambassador.
Half of his $3.7 million in annual gun and ammunition sales are to law enforcement. Cops and ex-cops work at his store.
---Anver let ABC News into his store Monday and will appear with NBC's Tom Brokaw today.
--After all, most of his clients are cops. "Guns are not all drive-by shootings. It's not all about Columbine.
http://extras.denverpost.com/news/gun0919.htm
DP 9-19-99
In Colorado, the Columbine High shooting led the Aurora Police Department to reverse a longstanding policy permitting the sale of used and confiscated guns.
But first, the department decided to go ahead with one last sale.
On July 15(1999), Aurora police took 206 guns to a local gun store, Dave's Guns, and received a $19,575 credit toward the purchase of future police supplies.
But after the Columbine High tragedy, (Aurora PD Chief Verne)Saint Vincent decided the risk of putting guns back on the street outweighed the economic benefits to his department.
By then, "we had already in my mind made a commitment to make that deal'' with Dave's Guns, he said. But "I told my executive staff - this is the last one. We're not going to be in the business of doing this anymore.''
Dave Anver, owner of Dave's Guns, has a good reputation with law-enforcement agencies. He buys police guns, sells police supplies and maintains police weapons. Posted inside his front door is a newspaper article on the Denver police gang unit.
--In the last three years, the Department of Corrections has shipped 80 semiautomatic pistols, some with pre-ban magazines, to Anver's store. Denver police sent him 197 used Remington shotguns in a 1996 trade for new shotguns.
Some police guns stay in his shop. But most are shipped to wholesalers, who in turn distribute them nationally to retail gun stores.
--The Jefferson County Sheriff's Department, the agency investigating the Columbine High massacre, sold a few AR-15 assault rifles - a sale Sheriff John Stone said will not be repeated. Two cities in Jefferson County, Lakewood and Littleton, also sold AR-15s made before the assault weapons ban.
http://extras.denverpost.com/news/guns1219.htm
Dave's Guns, an Arapahoe County store that reports more multiple sales than any other Colorado dealer
[Interestingly, "Dave's Guns" also sold a weapon to Platte Canyon(Bailey, CO, 9-27-06) school attacker Duane Morrison and also a weapon to New Life Church(Colo Springs) shooter Matthew Murray, 18 (12-9-07).]
http://www.denver-rmn.com/shooting/0424guns9.shtml
DRMN 4-24-99
Federal agents have tracked the two semiautomatic guns used in the Columbine High School massacre -- a TEC-9 pistol and a carbine -- to legal, licensed gun dealers.
But authorities are not saying how the 9mm weapons got into the hands of teens. Or where the dealers are located.
Initially, "they were purchased legally ... from federally licensed firearms dealers," said Jeff Roehm, chief of public information for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms.
--TEC-9s are easily fitted with a device called a "hell fire trigger." A shooter can empty a 32-round magazine in seconds, pop it out and reload quickly with this device, according to the Center to Prevent Handgun Violence, part of Handgun Control Inc., the nation's largest anti-gun lobby.
--Few metro-area gun dealers sell TEC-9s, said Dave Anver, of Dave's Guns, a gun store on Parker Road.
http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/2800951/detail.html
J.T. Trujillo, a law enforcement specialist with Dave's Guns.
--------------------
the Tanner Gun Show, an event that fills the Denver Merchandise Mart nine times a year.
http://careers.rockymountainnews.com/shooting/1214col1.shtml
Federal law prohibits the "straw purchase" of a firearm on behalf of someone who is ineligible to buy it. The two killers were underage.
But the law applies only to guns sold by a licensed federal firearms dealer. ATF agents have determined that Anderson bought two of the three guns from a private person -- not a dealer. But they have not found who sold Anderson the third gun.
If that person turns out to be a licensed dealer and Anderson falsified documents to disguise the purchase, she still could face charges.
http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/shooting/0128rbn2.shtml
Outside the hearing room, a woman who claimed she watched Harris, Klebold and Anderson wander through the Tanner Gun Show, waited to testify(before the Colo House Judiciary Committee on 1-27-00).
Pam Volpe, a volunteer for the Firearms Coalition of Colorado, was handing out political pamphlets that day in December 1998. The trio of Columbine students was so immature and boisterous, Volpe said.
For example, the teens noticed a gun-rights banner with a message about gun freedom in America.
"They said, 'Damn straight,"' Volpe recalled. "They were excited."
Also, Anderson was not the timid, naive young woman she appeared to be Tuesday, Volpe said. "She was a very beautiful young woman, and she was very flirtatious," Volpe said. "It was very out of place at a gun show."
8172
Ms. Blodgett provided a dealer list for the Denver CO Tanner Gun Shows on Nov 22 & 23, 1998 and Dec 12&13, 1998. Ms. Blodgett further provided a dealer "floorplan" that documents dealer locations, as she assigns them, during Tanner Gun Shows. ATF retained records. (ATF F 3900.16 property form)
http://www.daves-guns.com/faq.htm
quote from the website: "We love gun shows and you will sometimes find us there on the weekends."
http://www.nationalpost.com/news/world/story.html?id=751875
Frank DeAngelis "An 18-year-old student went to a gun show in Colorado Springs and bought these weapons and gave them to Klebold and Harris."
[Comment: Colo Springs??]
==============
Cops sold guns to Eric and Dylan at the Tanner Gun Show(TGS)?
The single most incriminating piece of evidence is the refusal of the investigators to tell us who sold H&K the Hi-Point and the pump action shotgun. There is no apparent visible effort in the released documents that the IOs even attempted to track down their identities. No receipt or bill of sale was issued, as far as I can tell. (Though that is true of the other two weapons also.) And usually, when they are hiding something, it's for a reason.
The connection with 'Dave's Guns' comes from a couple of obscure references:
http://www.gettyimages.com/Search/Search.aspx?contractUrl=2&language=en-US&family=editorial&p=Columbine%20&assetType=image&src=quick
Getty Images has a photo of 'Dave's Gunshop'(though the sign on the door clearly reads "Dave's Guns and Police Supply") as part of their Columbine collection of photos. (If the page doesn't pop up it's page 9 of 15, in the top row)
The caption provided for the photo reads:
"6/26/99 Dave's Gunshop near Littleton, [b]where some of the guns used in the Columbine massacre have been traced to[/b]."
http://www.westword.com/2005-01-27/news/word-of-mouth/3
{about half way down the page}
"....at the back of a Thornton strip mall. ...." is a "....gun shop that used to occupy the space between Don Ramon's and Shotz (that) was the shoddy, occasional business [b]where Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold purchased some of the weapons[/b] they eventually used at Columbine. In the wake of that tragedy, [b]reporters flooded the gun shop[/b], demanding answers from the reticent owner."
[Comment: I don't remember a single story in the media about any gunshop that may have been the source, directly or indirectly, of the Columbine weapons. Was this aspect of the story deliberately covered up? That's what it sounds like.]
This quote indicates that the shop or its salespeople could have been at the TGS that day:
http://www.daves-guns.com/faq.htm
quote from the website of Dave's Guns: "We love gun shows and you will sometimes [b]find us there on the weekends[/b]."
There is no question that 'Dave's Guns,' and its owner, Dave Anver, had a close relationship to police:
http://www.westword.com/issues/2001-03-01/news/feature2.html
One reason for Anver's success is niche marketing. He has made a particular effort to court local law-enforcement officers looking to buy guns for their jobs. Today Dave's Guns sells more firearms to more cops than any other local shop.
http://autos.rockymountainnews.com/shooting/0412dave1.shtml
--Half of his $3.7 million in annual gun and ammunition sales are to law enforcement. [b]Cops and ex-cops work at his store[/b]. ....most of his clients are cops.
http://extras.denverpost.com/news/gun0919.htm
DP 9-19-99
--On July 15(1999), Aurora police took 206 guns to a local gun store, Dave's Guns, and received a $19,575 credit toward the purchase of future police supplies. .....
--In the last three years, the Department of Corrections has shipped 80 semiautomatic pistols, some with pre-ban magazines, to Anver's store. Denver police sent him 197 used Remington shotguns in a 1996 trade for new shotguns.
--Dave Anver, owner of Dave's Guns, has [b]a good reputation[/b] with law-enforcement agencies. He buys police guns, sells police supplies and maintains police weapons. Posted inside his front door is a newspaper article on the [b]Denver police gang unit[/b].
[Comment: The TCM could indeed be considered a Denver-area gang. Thus the gang unit should have at least known of their existence. But after 4-20, the general attitude of the 'officials'--police and schools--was "trenchcoat who?"]
Dave Anver, far from being a pariah, was feelin' the love after Columbine:
http://autos.rockymountainnews.com/shooting/0412dave1.shtml
DRMN 4-12-2000 (the source describes events on the first anniversary, in April 2000)
While hordes of gun lovers will angrily protest President Clinton's every move in Denver, Anver — who sells more guns than any other Colorado dealer — will be [b]hanging out with the president[/b].
--Today, Anver will pack up an assortment of weapons and head off to [b]MSNBC[/b]'s gun control town hall as an invited guest.... .
--Anver let [b]ABC[/b] News into his store Monday and will appear with [b]NBC[/b]'s Tom Brokaw today.
[Comment: Is this a case of 'hiding in plain site?' Was it a message that Anver was protected and thus not to be bothered? Could it have been a reward for a job well done(quite often interview subjects are paid handsomely)?]
The 12-20-99 issue of Time magazine featured Columbine as its cover story. Inside was a photo of Stone and one of his pogues holding up the Tec9, the Hi-Point, and the double barreled shotgun. The caption said something like "cops hold up the three weapons used in the massacre." There was nothing in the article that mentioned the pump action shotgun, nor was there a retraction/correction printed in the next issue. Even though every version of events prior to this had them using four guns. At the time I thought maybe they were trying to distance themselves from this weapon for some reason.
(8258 )
Also in late December the BATF sent a letter to JeffCo that the computer search of records in the case is still ongoing.
[Comment: I think seven months is more than enough time to do a search of records. One gets the feeling this was just a delaying tactic, in the hope that the questions would fade away.]
Where did they get the guns? Well, they got the Tec-9 from Manes, and they got the long guns at the Tanner gun show, according to the official version.
...maybe, ...or maybe not....
--Let's start with the Tec-9
BATF(8150)
According to Mark Manes, he purchased the Intratech-9, ser#D076305, at the Tanner gun show on 8-2-98. He had a credit card receipt for $491 from Eagle Enterprises for the Tec-9 purchase. Eagle Enterprises says absolutely not! Which raises the question of whether a false paper trail was laid down for this weapon. At any rate the purchase price seems high--the cop who inventoried the seized evidence only put the value of it at $100(see EP 3-42). But Manes was not charged with forgery, as far as I know.
Mark Manes(8237)
Admits buying Tech-9, ser#D076305, from unknown buyer at Tanner on 8-2-98. Says he handed it over to Klebold on 1-23-99.
Brian Distel(8182)
Witness to Manes-"Klebold" Tec-9 transaction. Said it happened around late February, 1999. Also witnessed Manes buy it at the Tanner gun show, in January of 1999.
Describes buyer of Tec-9 thusly:
w/m, 6'
long curly hair, shoulder length
wearing blackjack pizza shirt
acne on face
20 years old
Distel IDed this person out of a photo array. Tellingly, the IOs do not put a name to this ID.
Greg Macilliott(8185)
The second witness to this transaction. Says it happened sometime in March of '99.
Describes purchaser:
curly hair
big nose
wearing blackjack pizza shirt
Like Distel, he IDed this person out of a photo array; he remains unidentified.
Comment: The police failure to identify who the two witnesses saw is obviously good evidence it was not Klebold. When I read those admittedly sparse discriptions, I think of Perry.
--The Hi-Point
Mark Manes(8237)
He asked Harris about the Hi-Point at a target shooting session on 3-6-99. "Harris said he got it from his cousin."
Phil Duran(8235 and 8213)
Went to target practice with H&K, Manes, and Manes' girlfriend in mid-March, 1999. He was told the Hi-Point belonged to an uncle or cousin.
--Shotguns
Denver Rocky Mountain News, 12-12-99
"The two shotguns used did not have serial numbers because they were made before 1968."
Marcus Notte, FBI(8203)
Shotguns have serial numbers: Stevens double-barrel, ser#A077513 and Savage Springfield pump action, ser#A232432.(Is it possible that we are talking about 4 shotguns here--two with numbers and two without?)
Says $300 given to Duran for purchase of shotgun, not a Tec-9.
Pat McDuffee(10789)
Says Klebold bought a shotgun on his 18nth birthday, "either from a Walmart or a K-mart."
Jim Washington(8245) and Ron Hartman(8249)
The duo at the Tanner gun show who sold Robyn Anderson one of the long guns. Hartman, who did the actual transaction, says it was the Stevens double-barrel shotgun, ser#A077513, and the transaction took place on 11-22-98. He says he is 80% sure it was Dylan Klebold that was the "young man who accompanied her", though he describes him as being only 5'11". For what it's worth, both Washington and Hartman are long-time federal employees--Washington was a 'senior investigative and security specialist' with the 'Defense Security Service,' a federal agency that conducts criminal investigation for the U.S. Dept of Defense, and Hartman was a 20-year veteran of both the Navy and the Air Force.
Robyn Anderson(8216)
Says Klebold bought shotgun from one dealer and Harris bought the double-barrel shotgun from another dealer, when they all went to the Tanner gun show on 12-13-98.
(9959)
Robyn Anderson told Brittany Campbell she had bought guns.
Kellie Brown,TCMer(8211)
Robyn told her in the evening of 4-20 that H&K purchased two shotguns and a rifle at the Tanner gun show.
Nathan Dykeman(8198 and 10693))
Says Klebold told him he bought a pistol('uzi' type) and a shotgun from Phil Duran. (Officially, Duran was merely a go-between, collecting and delivering the second payment on the Tec-9 from Klebold.) The Tec-9 and double-barrel shotgun belonged to Klebold; the pump action belonged to Harris.
Chris Morris(9822)
Told FBI hostage negotiators at 2:50pm on 4-20 that 'the' shotgun belongs to Harris' or Klebold's parents.
(10841)
Says Klebold could have got shotguns from his father, "as he had a number of guns."
Wheeldon, Sheridan PD detective(10222)
The first police officer to enter the Harris house on 4-20(thanks, Jane). A shotgun and ammunition is found by him in Harris' bedroom. Not a sawed-off shotgun barrel, and not a BB-gun.
"An unknown guage shotgun with a sling was hanging in clear view on the side of a dresser table inside the bedroom."
--Was there a handgun?
USA Today Online, 4-28-99
"Investigators said a girlfriend of one of the gunmen bought a handgun and a rifle used in the crime-and then on Wedesday said she actually bought two shotguns and a rifle."
Zach Heckler, TCMer(10754)
He was told by Robyn on 4-21 that she purchased two shotguns and a semi-automatic handgun.
ACSO Nelson(8802)
Witnesses tell him one shooter is carrying a double-barrel shotgun, machine gun like a Tec-9 and either a .45 or 9mm handgun. Shooter #2 is carrying single-barrel shotgun and a Tec-9 type machine gun.
Chris Wisher, Washington Post, 4-21-99
"Chris Wisher, a sophomore, said the gunmen were armed with bombs, a shotgun, a handgun and a third weapon that he said was 'like an uzi'.
BATF(8135-8145)
For some reason, on these pages the 11k goes into a digression into discussion of another crime--a drive by on 4-18 not thought to be related to Columbine. Traces were initiated on two guns seized: an Intratec 9, ser#D052614, and a Glock Model 17 9mm, ser#BLM99505. Are the IOs trying to tell us something here? Why would they include all this information on a crime that was totally unrelated to the subject of the 11K? IF either of the two weapons were part of the attack on 4-20, then it raises the troubling thesis that weapons used in the killings came from a police evidence room. Remember that a few of the eyewitnesses initially thought that one of the suspects was a cop.
[Dave's guns is on page 8136, where it was in the chain of possession of a Glock17 used in a drive-by shooting on 4-18-99. [4-16-96 sale date(see8316)]
I have always wondered why these 10 pages were in the 11k; well here is a possible link. Both the pistol and another Tec-9 were listed as being recovered in Littleton on 4-18, no address given. The drive -by occured in the 2800 block of East Euclid Avenue in Arapahoe County; this doesn't correspond to the address of any known TCMer.]
(9881)
At Leawood Park, reference to a Glock Model 21 revolver, handed amongst JeffCo sheriff's officers.
Nathan Dykeman(8198 )
"Dykeman never saw any Glock firearm or heard any talk of any Glock firearms."(Comment: why ask about a Glock in the first place?)
--Talk of an AK-47
Sean Graves(8759)
The shorter shooter was using an AK-47, army edition semi-automatic.
Brian Distel(8238 )
Went to a target shoot where an AK-47 was present.
Chris Morris(10037)
Says in past two weeks(of 4-20) Klebold or Harris bought an AK-47 off one of his other workers there.
--Possible other sources for the guns used in the attack
Bijan Monte(1016)
Said the Boles family(as in Tad Boles, TCMer) had a lot of guns. At the time of Boles' interview in May of '99, Boles' father was incarcerated on a weapons violation(10657).
Andrea Cook(5188 )
Says a (redacted-probably Perry) helped get the guns, and that he got them from several female students.
Dan Fleener, teacher(5558 )
Says TCMer David Caravan, boasted of having guns at home.
David Caravan, TCMer(6218 )
He told IOs that he had access to firearms at his residence.
Pat McDuffee(10786)
McDuffee says Joe Stair had many different types of guns, including shotguns. Also says TCMers Charles Phillips and John Beachum may have had weapons.
Jennifer Harmon(8834)
"She had heard that one of their dads owned a gun shop."
(10137)
Robert Perry's dad is a gun collector and "has an arsenal."
Eric Ault(10646)
Says that Harris told him he had access to his parent's guns.
Matt Houck(6633)
Says that Brooks Brown told him that Harris had recently ordered guns(he had just turned 18 and the three-week waiting period was up on 4-20.
Cecilia Grossman(7493)
A resident in the area, Brooks run up to her and ask if he could use the phone. According to her, Brooks told her: "Brown's ex-friend just turned 18 years old and Brown thought that he was getting a gun for his birthday."(Oddly enough, Brooks showed up four days later to 'confirm' that he was talking about Harris.(Taylor, 7687))
Daily News, Los Angeles, 4-25-99
"The investigators also said Thursday that they believed at least some of the weapons used in Tuesday's attack might have been stolen..."
John Veigel(7326)
Purchased Hi-Point rifle in Jan, '99
Benjamin Robert Stevens(8179)
Arrested with a Hi-Point rifle, ser#A54177, in his possession on 5-7-99. He claims he purchased the weapon from a store on 4-19-99, and that he was friends with Klebold and is "still tight with associates of Harris and Klebold."
FBI report, pg83
"...the weapons came from a local militia in the area,....The reason it happened on 4-20 is because they got all the guns and ammo and explosive compounds for free to do it on that date."(unknown source)
On 12-20-99 the BATF sent a letter to JeffCo that the computer search of records in the case is still ongoing(8258 ).(???)
Comment: The case of where H&K got their weaponry is not as clear cut as the police would have us believe. In the case of the Hi-Point and the pump action shotgun there is no apparent visible effort by the IOs to track down who sold them the weapons. In none of the four weapons sales was any receipt or bill of sale issued, as far as I can tell. The police are basically telling us that we have to accept the word of Mark Manes and Robin Anderson, both of whom, it should be noted, may have had motive to go along with the police version of events.
---------------------------------
Notes
DRMN 3-22-00
Two other Tanner exhibitors, Larry Russell and Ray Spain, have been linked to the TEC-DC9 used in the Columbine High killings. Neither have been charged with any wrongdoing for the sale of the weapon, which changed hands many times before ending up with Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold.
Russell and Spain have been in business together since the early 1990s, running various gun and fireworks operations, according to state records.
But ATF records show that only one man at a time maintains a firearms license, with a slight overlap. Russell had a license from 1990 to August 1997. Then Spain had one from May 1997 to Sept. 10, 1998. And Russell got his current license Sept. 22, 1998.
This business arrangement allows the formerly licensed partner to dispose of inventory without background checks or paperwork, authorities said.
Originally, the TEC-DC9 was registered to Spain's gun business. He then transferred it to his private property. In late summer of 1998, just before Russell got his license for the second time, he sold the gun for Spain at a Tanner Gun Show, according to court records.
The purchaser was Mark Manes, who's now serving six years in prison for selling the TEC-DC9 to juveniles. But Russell told ATF agents he kept no records of the sale.
-----------------------
Getty images
See pg15 of 24
photo of 'Dave's Gunshop' though the sign on the door clearly reads "Dave's Guns and Police Supply." [1842 South Parker Rd, #15, Denver(?-address not on photo caption)]
caption reads:
"6/26/99 Dave's Gunshop near Littleton, where some of the guns used in the Columbine massacre have been traced to."
The only mention of Dave's guns is on page 8136, where it was in the chain of possession of a Glock17 used in a drive-by shooting on 4-18-99. [4-16-96 sale date(see8316)] I have always wondered why these 10 pages were in the 11k; well here is a possible link. Both the pistol and another Tec-9 were listed as being recovered in Littleton on 4-18, no address given. The drive -by occured in the 2800 block of East Euclid Avenue in Arapahoe County; this doesn't correspond to the address of any known TCMer.
westword
http://www.westword.com/2005-01-27/news/word-of-mouth/3
"....at the back of a Thornton strip mall. ...." is a "....gun shop that used to occupy the space between Don Ramon's and Shotz (that) was the shoddy, occasional business where Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold purchased some of the weapons they eventually used at Columbine. In the wake of that tragedy, reporters flooded the gun shop, demanding answers from the reticent owner."
...could be referring to this one:
[http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/shooting/0430guns1.shtml
Thornton firearms dealer Larry Russell sold the semiautomatic pistol used in the Columbine High School killings at the Tanner Gun Show.
But Russell said Thursday that he kept no record showing who bought the weapon.
The TEC-DC9 ended up in the hands of Eric Harris, one of the two Columbine killers.]
DAVE'S GUNS(?) 1-3-01
http://www.westword.com/issues/2001-03-01/news/feature2.html
After a few years, Anver applied for a federal license to deal firearms. At first he sold them out of his house and at gun shows. In 1992, business was so good that he opened his first store, on Parker Road. Three years after that(1995?), he moved a few miles up the road to his current location, where business has continued to boom. Last year, Dave's Guns was the busiest single federally licensed gun store in the state. The store sold about 8,500 handguns, rifles, shotguns and collectibles.
One reason for Anver's success is niche marketing. He has made a particular effort to court local law-enforcement officers looking to buy guns for their jobs. Today Dave's Guns sells more firearms to more cops than any other local shop.
-- on June 1 (2001), Dave's Guns is burglarized. In all, Anver discovered 38 guns gone.
http://autos.rockymountainnews.com/shooting/0412dave1.shtml
DRMN 4-12-2000
While hordes of gun lovers will angrily protest President Clinton's every move in Denver, Anver — who sells more guns than any other Colorado dealer — will be hanging out with the president.
Clinton is loathed by the gun crowd. His visit today to promote a ballot proposal to close Colorado's so-called gun show loophole has incited a fresh round of animosity.
But not from Anver.
"President Clinton disagreeing with me does not make him an evil person," says the 39-year-old owner of Dave's Guns, a shop in a South Parker Road strip mall.
Today, Anver will pack up an assortment of weapons and head off to MSNBC's gun control town hall as an invited guest, the gun world's unlikely goodwill ambassador.
Half of his $3.7 million in annual gun and ammunition sales are to law enforcement. Cops and ex-cops work at his store.
---Anver let ABC News into his store Monday and will appear with NBC's Tom Brokaw today.
--After all, most of his clients are cops. "Guns are not all drive-by shootings. It's not all about Columbine.
http://extras.denverpost.com/news/gun0919.htm
DP 9-19-99
In Colorado, the Columbine High shooting led the Aurora Police Department to reverse a longstanding policy permitting the sale of used and confiscated guns.
But first, the department decided to go ahead with one last sale.
On July 15(1999), Aurora police took 206 guns to a local gun store, Dave's Guns, and received a $19,575 credit toward the purchase of future police supplies.
But after the Columbine High tragedy, (Aurora PD Chief Verne)Saint Vincent decided the risk of putting guns back on the street outweighed the economic benefits to his department.
By then, "we had already in my mind made a commitment to make that deal'' with Dave's Guns, he said. But "I told my executive staff - this is the last one. We're not going to be in the business of doing this anymore.''
Dave Anver, owner of Dave's Guns, has a good reputation with law-enforcement agencies. He buys police guns, sells police supplies and maintains police weapons. Posted inside his front door is a newspaper article on the Denver police gang unit.
--In the last three years, the Department of Corrections has shipped 80 semiautomatic pistols, some with pre-ban magazines, to Anver's store. Denver police sent him 197 used Remington shotguns in a 1996 trade for new shotguns.
Some police guns stay in his shop. But most are shipped to wholesalers, who in turn distribute them nationally to retail gun stores.
--The Jefferson County Sheriff's Department, the agency investigating the Columbine High massacre, sold a few AR-15 assault rifles - a sale Sheriff John Stone said will not be repeated. Two cities in Jefferson County, Lakewood and Littleton, also sold AR-15s made before the assault weapons ban.
http://extras.denverpost.com/news/guns1219.htm
Dave's Guns, an Arapahoe County store that reports more multiple sales than any other Colorado dealer
[Interestingly, "Dave's Guns" also sold a weapon to Platte Canyon(Bailey, CO, 9-27-06) school attacker Duane Morrison and also a weapon to New Life Church(Colo Springs) shooter Matthew Murray, 18 (12-9-07).]
http://www.denver-rmn.com/shooting/0424guns9.shtml
DRMN 4-24-99
Federal agents have tracked the two semiautomatic guns used in the Columbine High School massacre -- a TEC-9 pistol and a carbine -- to legal, licensed gun dealers.
But authorities are not saying how the 9mm weapons got into the hands of teens. Or where the dealers are located.
Initially, "they were purchased legally ... from federally licensed firearms dealers," said Jeff Roehm, chief of public information for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms.
--TEC-9s are easily fitted with a device called a "hell fire trigger." A shooter can empty a 32-round magazine in seconds, pop it out and reload quickly with this device, according to the Center to Prevent Handgun Violence, part of Handgun Control Inc., the nation's largest anti-gun lobby.
--Few metro-area gun dealers sell TEC-9s, said Dave Anver, of Dave's Guns, a gun store on Parker Road.
http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/2800951/detail.html
J.T. Trujillo, a law enforcement specialist with Dave's Guns.
--------------------
the Tanner Gun Show, an event that fills the Denver Merchandise Mart nine times a year.
http://careers.rockymountainnews.com/shooting/1214col1.shtml
Federal law prohibits the "straw purchase" of a firearm on behalf of someone who is ineligible to buy it. The two killers were underage.
But the law applies only to guns sold by a licensed federal firearms dealer. ATF agents have determined that Anderson bought two of the three guns from a private person -- not a dealer. But they have not found who sold Anderson the third gun.
If that person turns out to be a licensed dealer and Anderson falsified documents to disguise the purchase, she still could face charges.
http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/shooting/0128rbn2.shtml
Outside the hearing room, a woman who claimed she watched Harris, Klebold and Anderson wander through the Tanner Gun Show, waited to testify(before the Colo House Judiciary Committee on 1-27-00).
Pam Volpe, a volunteer for the Firearms Coalition of Colorado, was handing out political pamphlets that day in December 1998. The trio of Columbine students was so immature and boisterous, Volpe said.
For example, the teens noticed a gun-rights banner with a message about gun freedom in America.
"They said, 'Damn straight,"' Volpe recalled. "They were excited."
Also, Anderson was not the timid, naive young woman she appeared to be Tuesday, Volpe said. "She was a very beautiful young woman, and she was very flirtatious," Volpe said. "It was very out of place at a gun show."
8172
Ms. Blodgett provided a dealer list for the Denver CO Tanner Gun Shows on Nov 22 & 23, 1998 and Dec 12&13, 1998. Ms. Blodgett further provided a dealer "floorplan" that documents dealer locations, as she assigns them, during Tanner Gun Shows. ATF retained records. (ATF F 3900.16 property form)
http://www.daves-guns.com/faq.htm
quote from the website: "We love gun shows and you will sometimes find us there on the weekends."
http://www.nationalpost.com/news/world/story.html?id=751875
Frank DeAngelis "An 18-year-old student went to a gun show in Colorado Springs and bought these weapons and gave them to Klebold and Harris."
[Comment: Colo Springs??]
==============
Cops sold guns to Eric and Dylan at the Tanner Gun Show(TGS)?
The single most incriminating piece of evidence is the refusal of the investigators to tell us who sold H&K the Hi-Point and the pump action shotgun. There is no apparent visible effort in the released documents that the IOs even attempted to track down their identities. No receipt or bill of sale was issued, as far as I can tell. (Though that is true of the other two weapons also.) And usually, when they are hiding something, it's for a reason.
The connection with 'Dave's Guns' comes from a couple of obscure references:
http://www.gettyimages.com/Search/Search.aspx?contractUrl=2&language=en-US&family=editorial&p=Columbine%20&assetType=image&src=quick
Getty Images has a photo of 'Dave's Gunshop'(though the sign on the door clearly reads "Dave's Guns and Police Supply") as part of their Columbine collection of photos. (If the page doesn't pop up it's page 9 of 15, in the top row)
The caption provided for the photo reads:
"6/26/99 Dave's Gunshop near Littleton, [b]where some of the guns used in the Columbine massacre have been traced to[/b]."
http://www.westword.com/2005-01-27/news/word-of-mouth/3
{about half way down the page}
"....at the back of a Thornton strip mall. ...." is a "....gun shop that used to occupy the space between Don Ramon's and Shotz (that) was the shoddy, occasional business [b]where Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold purchased some of the weapons[/b] they eventually used at Columbine. In the wake of that tragedy, [b]reporters flooded the gun shop[/b], demanding answers from the reticent owner."
[Comment: I don't remember a single story in the media about any gunshop that may have been the source, directly or indirectly, of the Columbine weapons. Was this aspect of the story deliberately covered up? That's what it sounds like.]
This quote indicates that the shop or its salespeople could have been at the TGS that day:
http://www.daves-guns.com/faq.htm
quote from the website of Dave's Guns: "We love gun shows and you will sometimes [b]find us there on the weekends[/b]."
There is no question that 'Dave's Guns,' and its owner, Dave Anver, had a close relationship to police:
http://www.westword.com/issues/2001-03-01/news/feature2.html
One reason for Anver's success is niche marketing. He has made a particular effort to court local law-enforcement officers looking to buy guns for their jobs. Today Dave's Guns sells more firearms to more cops than any other local shop.
http://autos.rockymountainnews.com/shooting/0412dave1.shtml
--Half of his $3.7 million in annual gun and ammunition sales are to law enforcement. [b]Cops and ex-cops work at his store[/b]. ....most of his clients are cops.
http://extras.denverpost.com/news/gun0919.htm
DP 9-19-99
--On July 15(1999), Aurora police took 206 guns to a local gun store, Dave's Guns, and received a $19,575 credit toward the purchase of future police supplies. .....
--In the last three years, the Department of Corrections has shipped 80 semiautomatic pistols, some with pre-ban magazines, to Anver's store. Denver police sent him 197 used Remington shotguns in a 1996 trade for new shotguns.
--Dave Anver, owner of Dave's Guns, has [b]a good reputation[/b] with law-enforcement agencies. He buys police guns, sells police supplies and maintains police weapons. Posted inside his front door is a newspaper article on the [b]Denver police gang unit[/b].
[Comment: The TCM could indeed be considered a Denver-area gang. Thus the gang unit should have at least known of their existence. But after 4-20, the general attitude of the 'officials'--police and schools--was "trenchcoat who?"]
Dave Anver, far from being a pariah, was feelin' the love after Columbine:
http://autos.rockymountainnews.com/shooting/0412dave1.shtml
DRMN 4-12-2000 (the source describes events on the first anniversary, in April 2000)
While hordes of gun lovers will angrily protest President Clinton's every move in Denver, Anver — who sells more guns than any other Colorado dealer — will be [b]hanging out with the president[/b].
--Today, Anver will pack up an assortment of weapons and head off to [b]MSNBC[/b]'s gun control town hall as an invited guest.... .
--Anver let [b]ABC[/b] News into his store Monday and will appear with [b]NBC[/b]'s Tom Brokaw today.
[Comment: Is this a case of 'hiding in plain site?' Was it a message that Anver was protected and thus not to be bothered? Could it have been a reward for a job well done(quite often interview subjects are paid handsomely)?]
The 12-20-99 issue of Time magazine featured Columbine as its cover story. Inside was a photo of Stone and one of his pogues holding up the Tec9, the Hi-Point, and the double barreled shotgun. The caption said something like "cops hold up the three weapons used in the massacre." There was nothing in the article that mentioned the pump action shotgun, nor was there a retraction/correction printed in the next issue. Even though every version of events prior to this had them using four guns. At the time I thought maybe they were trying to distance themselves from this weapon for some reason.
(8258 )
Also in late December the BATF sent a letter to JeffCo that the computer search of records in the case is still ongoing.
[Comment: I think seven months is more than enough time to do a search of records. One gets the feeling this was just a delaying tactic, in the hope that the questions would fade away.]
Labels: Columbine
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